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Post by biglin on Sept 16, 2013 12:33:48 GMT -8
If it's at all debatable now it's only because Obama has weakened the US.
I certainly don't like the idea of human rights violators being a superpowers.Well, the US has been a human rights violator for years now - Clinton took it to a new level, then Bush upped the ante and Obama is simply carrying on in their proud tradition. Sometimes Americans forget that the US is NOT the biggest country in the world and sometimes (mercifully only a minority) imagine that size equals the 'right' to bully other nations. America, like any other nation in the world, has its friends and enemies. But its friends (of whom I count myself one) sometimes despair at the inability of its leaders and even its people to grasp the fact that other people and other nations sometimes think they are just plain WRONG.
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Post by admin on Sept 16, 2013 13:22:51 GMT -8
America may not have been 'universally loved' but it sure as hell was respected! It's not now.
If it's a contest between America and those 'other' countries, I will support America EVERY TIME.
If it's a contest between the 'American Way' and the 'Russian or Chinese way', I will choose the American way.
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Post by admin on Sept 16, 2013 13:28:25 GMT -8
I don't know about that, but be that as it may, I don't see immigrants clamoring to get into Russia or China. Most want to come to the US.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 16, 2013 15:02:13 GMT -8
America may not have been 'universally loved' but it sure as hell was respected! It's not now.
If it's a contest between America and those 'other' countries, I will support America EVERY TIME.
If it's a contest between the 'American Way' and the 'Russian or Chinese way', I will choose the American way.You do know there are folks out there absolutely sure Bush made us the laughing stock of the Western World? Of course, it's not about Russia and China. Why assume there is only 'one way' or 'the other'? Brings to mind the old adage: "Often wrong, never in doubt".
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Post by admin on Sept 16, 2013 20:41:13 GMT -8
No, I don't see how Bush made the US a laughing stock. They made fun of him, but he didn't disgrace the US. He neither defiled the Oval office, nor got bitch-slapped by despots.
'One way or the other'? The only way I care about is the way of FREEDOM. I will take a free country over an oppressive regime any day. I don't need to toss a coin on that one.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 17, 2013 4:57:46 GMT -8
No, I don't see how Bush made the US a laughing stock. They made fun of him, but he didn't disgrace the US. He neither defiled the Oval office, nor got bitch-slapped by despots.
'One way or the other'? The only way I care about is the way of FREEDOM. I will take a free country over an oppressive regime any day. I don't need to toss a coin on that one.....except if it's a Democrat POTUS talking about attacking an 'oppressor'. Then it's no longer 'my way or the highway', your position stated here. The idea the United States has some sort of monopoly on Freedom? It's a fallacy. We don't. Anyone who believes so is, at best, misinformed. At worst, delusional. This NeoConservative jingoist BS was exposed 10 years ago. That's what your last two posts read. I don't believe you were against Iraq. I don't see that person in any of your posts. But you say you were against the false "WMD Pony Show" at the UN. So, it follows you are OK with making 'mistakes' that cost thousands of innocent civilian lives. I wonder what those dead civilians families think of your "Freedom". I wonder how 'Free' they are, even now. We are entering into a dangerous world, Heeeeey. We won't be the only ones with Drones and ICBM's much longer. Once one decides 'killing the other guy' is the only solution, the other guy does whatever it takes to kill back. Then? All bet's are off. "The fog of war". This 'sole superpower' concept isn't just coming to an end. It is, in fact, already over.
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Post by biglin on Sept 17, 2013 5:41:16 GMT -8
America may not have been 'universally loved' but it sure as hell was respected! It's not now.
If it's a contest between America and those 'other' countries, I will support America EVERY TIME.
If it's a contest between the 'American Way' and the 'Russian or Chinese way', I will choose the American way.The degree of respect the rest of the world once felt for America was NEVER universal. Did Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and Franco respect America? Did Kaiser Bill? And in any case America used to be seen by most of the world as a country that embodied liberal values of tolerance, freedom, respect for human rights and so on. With the gradual tearing up of that Enlightenment agenda - the bedrock of the philosophy of the Founding Fathers - by successive administrations from Wilson, Coolidge, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Senior, Clinton, Bush Junior and Obama the ethos on which the US had been founded was tossed gradually into the rubbish bin of history. Instead of tolerance an unpleasant dogmatism became the fashion; instead of freedom any and every excuse to introduce repressive and authoritarian measures was the new orthodoxy; human rights increasingly became seen as an irritating impediment to the growing desire to oppress the citizens. And the whole idea that a) there is only one 'American Way; b) that it is the only 'right' way; c) that because it's American it must be 'right;' d) that the 'American Way' is beyond criticism - all these assumptions are not only dubious but patronising and arrogant and question begging. I love the American people and I am glad that my country and the US are friends. I hope our friendship will continue for ever. But even friends sometimes feel forced to criticise each other if they think that they are acting in stupid or wrong ways. Unfortunately the 'my country right or wrong' mentality makes it impossible for people who believe in it to think rationally and to be self-critical. Us Brits agonise and forever self-criticise; the Americans, sadly, much as I love them are far too complacent and too easily satisfied with the smug and mistaken belief that if it's American it must be right!
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Post by biglin on Sept 17, 2013 5:43:48 GMT -8
I don't know about that, but be that as it may, I don't see immigrants clamoring to get into Russia or China. Most want to come to the US.a) that's for economic reasons; b) maybe you should research the various human rights violations the US has been guilty of. For a quick suggestion as to places to look try: a) Clinton's assault on freedom; b) the Patriot Act; c) Guantanamo Bay; d) the defence of torture by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld I could give plenty more but those are good places to start.
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Post by admin on Sept 17, 2013 7:16:32 GMT -8
No, I don't see how Bush made the US a laughing stock. They made fun of him, but he didn't disgrace the US. He neither defiled the Oval office, nor got bitch-slapped by despots.
'One way or the other'? The only way I care about is the way of FREEDOM. I will take a free country over an oppressive regime any day. I don't need to toss a coin on that one.....except if it's a Democrat POTUS talking about attacking an 'oppressor'. Then it's no longer 'my way or the highway', your position stated here. The idea the United States has some sort of monopoly on Freedom? It's a fallacy. We don't. Anyone who believes so is, at best, misinformed. At worst, delusional. This NeoConservative jingoist BS was exposed 10 years ago. That's what your last two posts read. I don't believe you were against Iraq. I don't see that person in any of your posts. But you say you were against the false "WMD Pony Show" at the UN. So, it follows you are OK with making 'mistakes' that cost thousands of innocent civilian lives. I wonder what those dead civilians families think of your "Freedom". I wonder how 'Free' they are, even now. We are entering into a dangerous world, Heeeeey. We won't be the only ones with Drones and ICBM's much longer. Once one decides 'killing the other guy' is the only solution, the other guy does whatever it takes to kill back. Then? All bet's are off. "The fog of war". This 'sole superpower' concept isn't just coming to an end. It is, in fact, already over.
I actually was against invading Iraq because I felt Bush was using 9-11 to divert troops and the war from Afghanistan, but now that it's common knowledge that Saddam Hussein was even worse than Assad, used chemical weapons, killed his own people, etc., why would the Democrats support Obama doing the same thing on a smaller, ineffective scale and for the reason to save face about his stupid 'red line' comment, when they were against Bush doing it when at least Bush had an objective and achieved it (regime change)?
A weakened America makes the whole world more dangerous.
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Post by admin on Sept 17, 2013 7:21:36 GMT -8
I don't know about that, but be that as it may, I don't see immigrants clamoring to get into Russia or China. Most want to come to the US.a) that's for economic reasons; b) maybe you should research the various human rights violations the US has been guilty of. For a quick suggestion as to places to look try: a) Clinton's assault on freedom; b) the Patriot Act; c) Guantanamo Bay; d) the defence of torture by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld I could give plenty more but those are good places to start.
I won't argue with 'a', but 'b' and 'c' were done because we were attacked on 9-11-01 and it served to protect the country. If not for waterboarding, the info to find OBL would not have been obtained, and Obama (who is against waterboarding) wouldn't have had that opportunity to take credit for OBL's killing. I'm surprised he even authorized it because he's more the type to have wanted him captured alive and read his Miranda rights.
But I would add to your list the NSA, and the IRS being used by Obama to spy on Republicans. He seems to view Republicans as his enemy, not any terrorist groups. If he went after the terrorists the way he goes after Republicans and Fox News, the country would be a lot safer from attacks.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 17, 2013 7:41:16 GMT -8
....except if it's a Democrat POTUS talking about attacking an 'oppressor'. Then it's no longer 'my way or the highway', your position stated here. The idea the United States has some sort of monopoly on Freedom? It's a fallacy. We don't. Anyone who believes so is, at best, misinformed. At worst, delusional. This NeoConservative jingoist BS was exposed 10 years ago. That's what your last two posts read. I don't believe you were against Iraq. I don't see that person in any of your posts. But you say you were against the false "WMD Pony Show" at the UN. So, it follows you are OK with making 'mistakes' that cost thousands of innocent civilian lives. I wonder what those dead civilians families think of your "Freedom". I wonder how 'Free' they are, even now. We are entering into a dangerous world, Heeeeey. We won't be the only ones with Drones and ICBM's much longer. Once one decides 'killing the other guy' is the only solution, the other guy does whatever it takes to kill back. Then? All bet's are off. "The fog of war". This 'sole superpower' concept isn't just coming to an end. It is, in fact, already over.
I actually was against invading Iraq because I felt Bush was using 9-11 to divert troops and the war from Afghanistan, but now that it's common knowledge that Saddam Hussein was even worse than Assad, used chemical weapons, killed his own people, etc., why would the Democrats support Obama doing the same thing on a smaller, ineffective scale and for the reason to save face about his stupid 'red line' comment, when they were against Bush doing it when at least Bush had an objective and achieved it (regime change)?
A weakened America makes the whole world more dangerous.
Ugh. You do not make this easy. :D Saddam gassed his own people in 1989. He also gassed Iranians back in that era. The US, at the behest of Kuwait (basically, although not quite that simple), defeated Saddam in 1991. At that point, Saddam reluctantly agreed to UN monitoring of chemical weapons, in fact, weapons PERIOD. He did not gas anyone from then on. In other words, Heeeeey, Saddam the 'bad guy' was already in containment for his previous actions. Throwing out 'gassed his own' as a reason for invading in 2003, is like resending a paroled car thief back to jail for the same crime he did time for in the first place. It shouldn't be in the conversation, is all. I admit, I'm surprised you don't seem to know this? The WMD thing in 2003 was all BS. We went there under the false assumption Iraqis would welcome Western Capitalism in the form of US Corporations as a launching pad. Economic Projection is the "New Imperialism". That's what neoconservatism is. Iraq was a neoconservative adventure. Or misadventure. Yes, I'd say misadventure. It had absolutely nothing to with freeing oppressed people.
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Post by admin on Sept 17, 2013 10:28:10 GMT -8
I do know it, and that's another reason I was against it. I didn't believe the 'evidence' and the letter Powell read to the UN that I had posted on message boards at the time that it was 'doctored'. I don't care that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. I don't know that he didn't have chemical weapons, and those are the weapons that Syria now has. They could've been moved.
Regardless, I have been consistent. I was against Bush invading Iraq, and I'm against Obama (who really doesn't know what the hell he's doing) attacking Syria, UNLIKE all those who were so outspoken THEN, suddenly having nothing to say about Obama now.
Why haven't Susan Sarandon, George cLOONEY, Sean Penn, and all those other Obama worshippers said anything about it?
If there was no good reason to invade Iraq, there's even less reason to attack Syria, PLUS, broadcast the how and where.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 17, 2013 11:14:13 GMT -8
I do know it, and that's another reason I was against it. I didn't believe the 'evidence' and the letter Powell read to the UN that I had posted on message boards at the time that it was 'doctored'. I don't care that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. I don't know that he didn't have chemical weapons, and those are the weapons that Syria now has. They could've been moved.
Regardless, I have been consistent. I was against Bush invading Iraq, and I'm against Obama (who really doesn't know what the hell he's doing) attacking Syria, UNLIKE all those who were so outspoken THEN, suddenly having nothing to say about Obama now.
Why haven't Susan Sarandon, George cLOONEY, Sean Penn, and all those other Obama worshippers said anything about it?
If there was no good reason to invade Iraq, there's even less reason to attack Syria, PLUS, broadcast the how and where.
OK, from here on in, I'll take your word you were against Iraq. It doesn't really seem to add up with things you say, but I'll accept it on face. We're done with that. Your second paragraph? What sticks out for me (but I won't argue it) is how you can't say the word "Obama" without saying something derisive. Your third sentence get's a whopping 'who cares?' from me. They are actors. They are no smarter or informed than you. I can absolutely assure you, they wouldn't want to debate me in a barroom. 4th sentence? My gut feeling is? This has all been 'theater'. I doubt Obama ever believed he was 'striking' Syria. I could be wrong, but history will tell, eventually. BTW? I'm not sorry Obama made 'noise'. I would have disagreed with an 'overt act'. But I'm not sorry the Russians intervened. I wouldn't be surprised if Putin and Obama spoke 'on the phone, through diplomats, etc' before we heard about anything. It's called diplomacy. In my opinion? This 'schizm' between us and the rest of the world, was certainly inflamed by GWB's 'with us or against us' attitude, particularly as pertains to Iraq. Iraq was BS, bordering on Fascism. Anyone with a lick of geopolitical sense knew it at the time. I may be a 'pedant', but I'm no wizard, am not the smartest person in the room, yet I knew it. Seriously? The US enjoyed an extended period of world power and prosperity because the Europeans were intent on killing eachother, 1914 to 1945. We got all the contracts to rebuild the place. Why did we do so well? Because the two oceans allowed us to make war without getting bombed. Propagandists would have us believe it is US 'exceptionalism'. Phooey. The guy most responsible for US military superiority? Werner Von Braun. And our powerful postwar economy. Whats all this to do with anything? In my opinion, the 'post war era' is over. It's a new world. Europe is not our 'play ground' anymore, the Cold War is done. No one cares about it. We need to rethink our place in the world. Economics dictate. Do you know why? Because the rest of the world now wants to carry on the way we have the last 70 years. Economically. China will overtake us, assuming they haven't already. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Imagine it's like US professional sports. 'Parity' is upon us. We have no choice. The rest of the world says so. And like it or not? We need them. And they need us. Terrorists? They are a price we are all paying, including our friends. I'm not saying we can't do anything. I'm saying we can't be hyper involved in everything anymore. The party is over.
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Post by admin on Sept 17, 2013 17:09:26 GMT -8
That is the attitude Obama came into office with--that America is not exceptional and shouldn't be exceptional, then set about to weaken us and now we see a steady decline of society as a whole. Even the very demographics that put him in office are doing worse than before he took office.
I don't see what is so hard to believe about my being against invading Iraq. At least I'm consistent, unlike those who are now thinking Obama is a mastermind and intended all along for things to turn out the way they did--as if he actually manipulated Putin. rolleyes
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 17, 2013 18:26:11 GMT -8
It's hard to believe given the 'black and white' rigidity with which you defend GOP politics. My God, you don't pass up one chance to slip a 'slogan' in.
Seriously? I don't give a fk. No one tells me what to think. 'Group think' annoys me on every level, whether I agree or not. I'm way too much a 'free spirit', which comes with a litany of other problems, believe me. This is not a 'better than', this is a personal 'tic'.
I didn't 'suddenly' think anything. I've laid out my full 'politik' on this very board, in a comprehensive, if disjointed, manner. All's you do is dodge.
YOU are inconsistent, not me. It's not my fault you refuse to address the real issues. And you do, repeatedly. Often trying to turn me into some one dimensional 'Strawman' that suits your simple, ridiculously one sided poltics.
I laid out, in no uncertain terms, how the 'biker/muslim' story was manufactured horsesh*t. You are YET to address this point.
I laid out, in no uncertain terms, how Iraq was a neoconservative 'misadventure'. You 'sideways' agree with this, while, out the other side your mouth, mimic the same jingoist crap that birthed it. BTW? "My country right or wrong"? We hung Germans and Japanese for this very attitude. We did!
I laid out, in no uncertain terms, how the world economic is changing. Everyone on the Goddam planet knows it, except for a loud, idiotic branch of the American politik. Of course, you 'strawmanned' me into some other BS, and didn't address it. Laughably, you threw out the word "Freedom" as a 'defense'.
In CAPS, no less.
You are a 'dogmatist'. A GOP 'dogmatist'.
Please don't bother denying this, as the only person whose intelligence you insult at this point is your own.
Let me help you out here. (And you do need help, trust me)
Obama already won a second term, HELLO!!!! Unless he takes us into a few useless, unnecessary wars, and dumps the economy into the sh*tter? All the moderates will remember is the GOP's relentless sandbagging of Obama. Most people personally 'like' Obama. Moderates know he has......basically followed Bush's policies.
We don't believe Hannity's nonsense, etc.
Biglin is right y'know. The US is like a 'rightwing' Europe. Obama went for universal healthcare, but not without fattening up a bunch of private sector businessmen first. That's some far right stuff, textbook 101.
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