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Post by admin on Sept 17, 2013 19:27:29 GMT -8
How have I done that when all I've done is criticize Obama's lack of leadership and governing, and point out how his policies have not worked? HE is the one in office, after all, not the the GOP. Criticizing HIM is not defending the GOP.
As to the other points you made, I have addressed the Million Muslim march and posted a video of the organizer of the group being interviewed as to why the march was being held, so what was it that I didn't address?
I have posted a few links to back up the points I have made regarding Obama's policies not working, etc., whereas you have posted your OPINIONS, not necessarily facts.
I have never said 'my country right or wrong', but I'll take Western culture and support its influence on other parts of the world rather than let it be influenced and weakened with oppressive cultures.
I think American culture, in spite of its imperfections, is the best in the world and the most advanced and progressive in the world. If that makes me the bad guy, so be it.
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Post by biglin on Sept 18, 2013 4:03:24 GMT -8
a) that's for economic reasons; b) maybe you should research the various human rights violations the US has been guilty of. For a quick suggestion as to places to look try: a) Clinton's assault on freedom; b) the Patriot Act; c) Guantanamo Bay; d) the defence of torture by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld I could give plenty more but those are good places to start.
I won't argue with 'a', but 'b' and 'c' were done because we were attacked on 9-11-01 and it served to protect the country. If not for waterboarding, the info to find OBL would not have been obtained, and Obama (who is against waterboarding) wouldn't have had that opportunity to take credit for OBL's killing. I'm surprised he even authorized it because he's more the type to have wanted him captured alive and read his Miranda rights.
But I would add to your list the NSA, and the IRS being used by Obama to spy on Republicans. He seems to view Republicans as his enemy, not any terrorist groups. If he went after the terrorists the way he goes after Republicans and Fox News, the country would be a lot safer from attacks.Well, it was Clinton who first used Guantanamo Bay as a detention centre before the Supreme Court made him stop. Bush just copied Clinton's bad example (even though it was Haitians who were Clinton's victims). The Patriot Act was NOT the RESULT of 9/11; the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld axis of evil USED 9/11 as an excuse to introduce it. Torture is NEVER justified and it is a) against the US Constitution; b) against the UN Declaration of Human Rights to which the US is a signatory. So whichever way you look at it by using torture the US broke its own laws as well as international laws. That makes Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and co CRIMINALS. Does anyone seriously think that bumping off bin Laden was that important? One man didn't make all that much difference. Now the NSA in America has been used by successive governments to destroy the liberties of the people; the use of the IRS as a snooping device began under Nixon and his example has been followed by successive governments of both parties; and the way in which the liberties of the citizen and the gradual erosion of due process has increased again began under Nixon and was extended by Reagan, both Bushes and Clinton. It's NOT a party issue; BOTH parties in the US are authoritarian. To me you seem to view Democrats as the enemy so your suggestion that Obama views Republicans as the enemy is rather like the pot calling the kettle black. And I'll leave you with the words of (I think) Thomas Jefferson who said (I paraphrase from memory) 'a nation that values security over liberty will end up with neither.' As for the Patriot Act, I'll remind you of the words of John Jay who said (again I'm paraphrasing from memory) that 'a bad law is NO law at all).
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 18, 2013 4:40:46 GMT -8
If it weren't so venomous and critical of every single thing he's done, it may carry more weight. He's continued many of Bush II's policies. The GOP is now against those policies (as am I, often enough. Of course, I always was).
Hannity cherry picks his guests to promote his POV. Your 'clip', far as I'm concerned, helps prove my point. Do we even know who this man is before his appearance on Hannity? Of course not. If he officially speaks for the three dozen Muslims who showed up? Who were actually 'truthers'? A good portion not even Muslim? That's 'manufactured outrage'.
Because the story itself was designed to get a bunch of Right wing Americans raging at an entire religion. I think between 3 and 10 thousand bikers showed up to counter protest the "Muslims"? Mission Accomplished, Sean. It's like slamming all dairy products because we don't like one flavor of Ice Cream.
And just as I predicted, even though it was an outright BS story from go, complete with it's "Three Dozen Finale", the narrative somehow is? The "Red White and Blue" all American Bikers showed the "Muslims" where to 'get off'.
MY OPINIONS are sound. I don't have to adhere to any dogma. Just good old common sense. You going to try to tell me Hannity's aren't calculated to reach a certain demographic?
Look, you want to be a proud American, that's fine. You probably will have trouble believing this, but so am I. I think our culture is? Well, I'm not a huge fan of hip hop or Hollywood these days. I can't stand reality TV, although these news programs I watch (left and right) have a lot in common with them. That could just be my age though. My Dad liked Elvis, couldn't stand Led Zeppelin.
Extremists? We certainly have a threat. Of course we have our own nuts (DC, Lanza, the Boston Bombers, the Jihadi at the Army base).
We can't blame an entire religion for thier version of 'organized crime', if you will. I don't have the answer. But I'm sure painting an entire culture as 'terrorists' doesn't help things.
Quite frankly? Had GWB just gone to Afghanistan after the Taliban refused to turn over Al Quaida? I'd probably be something of a fan.
GWB was very progressive in his attitude towards impoverished nations in Africa. I don't like 'trickle down'? I think I'll live. Laughably, Obama has mostly continued 'trickle down', which is essentially what I'm voting against.
I dunno. What did you guys want? Boots on the ground in Egypt, Syria, Libya, and of course, Iran? Do you think we will somehow be able to maintain this projection?
I agree with Ron Paul. We gotta stop this nonsense. Time to take care of our own.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 18, 2013 5:13:33 GMT -8
Well, I have to say? I don't disagree with everything you say: but I don't believe the USA politic has been solely a force for 'bad' since, I dunno, Woodrow Wilson? Seriously. The English Empire didn't hand over all their world 'properties' in a fit of 'conscience'. They got thrown out with the very guns they brought. The most important, 'loudest' voice of the early "Cold War" was Winston Churchill. One could say all this Middle East tension was largely caused by 'The Empires' fragmentation of these cultures to suit the British lifestyle. ....and, I see this as relevant today. The US has basically continued the old Empire, except 'money' is the new 'flag in the ground'. The Brits and French are complicit. Sure, Chirac said 'no' to Iraq. But no sooner was the sh*t happening then French Capitalists were in there making money. Pretty sure they have oil holdings there to this day? I'm sure I don't have to tell you about the UK. I see the middle east as a culture clash. We need to get out. Even if we have to start taking trains because the oil is too high. Screw it man, it's theirs anyway. I do not mind one bit Osama Bin Laden dead. Wouldn't be surprised if he was fine with it. "Warriors Creed" and all.
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Post by biglin on Sept 18, 2013 5:38:30 GMT -8
Well, I have to say? I don't disagree with everything you say: but I don't believe the USA politic has been solely a force for 'bad' since, I dunno, Woodrow Wilson? Seriously. The English Empire didn't hand over all their world 'properties' in a fit of 'conscience'. They got thrown out with the very guns they brought. The most important, 'loudest' voice of the early "Cold War" was Winston Churchill. One could say all this Middle East tension was largely caused by 'The Empires' fragmentation of these cultures to suit the British lifestyle. ....and, I see this as relevant today. The US has basically continued the old Empire, except 'money' is the new 'flag in the ground'. The Brits and French are complicit. Sure, Chirac said 'no' to Iraq. But no sooner was the sh*t happening then French Capitalists were in there making money. Pretty sure they have oil holdings there to this day? I'm sure I don't have to tell you about the UK. I see the middle east as a culture clash. We need to get out. Even if we have to start taking trains because the oil is too high. Screw it man, it's theirs anyway. I do not mind one bit Osama Bin Laden dead. Wouldn't be surprised if he was fine with it. "Warriors Creed" and all. If I gave the impression that I thought that nothing but bad has come out of the US then I apologise because that wasn't at all what I meant to convey. I think sometimes (even as a Brit with a passion for history who has studied US history far more extensively than most of my countryfolk) that there are certain Presidents (and other political figures who didn't make it) that have resonance and to some extent you can make inferences about people's political positions from their attitudes towards those leaders. To me, for instance, I'd call John Adams, John Tyler, James Knox Polk, Millard Filmore, Franklin Pierce, Rutherford Hayes, Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, George H W Bush, Bill Clinton, George W Bush and Barack Obama all broadly speaking BAD Presidents. I'd call Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Martin van Buren, William Henry Harrison (yes, I know he only had the job for five minutes but his ideas and instincts were sound!), Ulysses Grant, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William Taft, Herbert Hoover, Franklin D Roosevelt, Harry S Truman, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford all broadly speaking GOOD Presidents. I'd call Jimmy Carter, John Quincey Adams and Abraham Lincoln all Presidents who MEANT well but whose policies were disastrous. I don't know if any of that makes sense to an American but it does to me! Actually the British - NOT 'English' - Empire DID hand over its colonies voluntarily and was NOT 'kicked out of them.' India had been being prepared for independence since the early 1920s; the African colonies were all given their independence in the 1960s with the exception of the special case of Rhodesia where the behaviour of Ian Smith meant that many years of civil war were necessary; and Hong Kong was handed over to the Chinese imperialists peacefully. I don't know if you're a Marxist, Mickey, but your 'analysis' of the Middle East seems to me far too heavily dependent on the Marxist interpretation of history (as purely based on economic criteria). As someone with a degree in history and a passion for the subject I think the Marxist interpretation is utter codswallop and refuted by thousands of counter-examples. Economically people will try and take advantage of situations, sure; but that's like suggesting that if (for the sake of argument) an elderly relative dies and leaves you money that you only visited them BECAUSE you wanted their inheritance. It's a shallow, superficial and in most cases simply WRONG analysis of history. Yes, the US has been getting into empire (at least since the time of Jefferson to be honest and at least he had the grace to feel guilty about the Louisiana Purchase) but it hasn't got either the centuries of experience that the British and French had of running an empire nor has it got the same degree of 'live and let live' that they had in terms of respecting native cultures and allowing them as much freedom as possible. With American imperialism it tends to be the utter 'coca-colanization' of a country and everything non-American tends to be regarded as inferior which is not just arrogant but guaranteed to raise people's hackles and lead to trouble later down the line. And as a final thought the Middle East is no more monolithic than Europe, Africa or Asia. There are just as many variations in terms of culture, religion, politics, economics and so on as there are anywhere else in the world. But to me the most frightening thing of all is the often WILFUL ignorance of too many Americans about the world outside their nation. If you don't have a world perspective - and I'm NOT one of the 'one world government' types - anything BUT - I'm dead AGAINST all that kind of thinking - then you lose out massively on every level of life.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 18, 2013 6:27:17 GMT -8
Not Marxist. If you want, substitute the word 'profiteers' for everywhere I used 'Capitalist' In the present day, the profiteers 'happen to be' Capitalists.
It's always about money. The "British Empire" was about wealth and lifestyle. Bringing up Abe Lincoln, etc, opens up the door to the Boer Wars, yes? My understanding of the Boer Wars was the Brits fighting to keep the Empire? Did the British not resist Ghandi?
I would suggest this: after two economically backbreaking wars, the "Empire" really wasn't feasible anymore. (not to mention 60+ million dead, not bad for a bunch of well meaning pacifists! <---OK, that's levity)
Now, I know the 'broader Empire' was waning down, no debate there. But not because the "BE" wanted to be nice.
And BTW? And I believe you will 'get' the irony here? The same 'we treat them well and to their benefit' you pointed out about the BE? This is exactly the same rhetoric 'interventionists' in this country wave around. No, really. Same thing. "Paternalism".
Once someone takes away another's freedom to govern themselves? It is oppression. I am 100% certain there were some slaves sorry to see the Confederacy lose the war here. Everything they 'knew' was going 'bye bye'. Which doesn't mean they had 'freewill'.
I honestly don't know where the 'inheritance' analogy comes from.
Long story short? I believe the whole 'Terrorist/Muslim' canard is about generations of folks who feel major interference with self determination. Today it's the US/Israel. which segues nicely right out of the BE.
C'mon, really. The BE didn't send their navy all around the globe looking to 'help folks'. They were scouring for raw materials so's they could live better. Which is not entirely different then whats going on in the Middle East now.
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Post by admin on Sept 18, 2013 7:40:16 GMT -8
@ Micketeeze & Biglin, I don't know where you get the impression that I think the GOP is perfect and blameless. They are no longer in power. They seem to be powerless now headed for irrelevancy, so why do I need to say anything about them? The one who is in charge is Obama. HE is the one who has gone back on so many things, and in this day and age of YouTube, it's all on video for everyone to see and compare what he said in the past versus now.
If he's following what Bush did, why are the Democrats supporting him? I said on another board that his 'achievement' of killing OBL was because he followed Bush's directives.
Now he's back wanting to raise the debt ceiling again.
If I could find ONE THING he's done that has actually made the country stronger, I would give him credit for it.
Do either of you actually think world peace is possible, especially in the current environment with society steadily getting worse and worse? I don't. Therefore, it comes down to which countries are more free, meaning less oppressive, to its citizens.
Obama went in office thinking he could talk his 'magic' to despots and that they could be reasoned with. How has that worked out for him so far?
I do NOT support the notion that the US is the big, bad bully of the world and should just make nice and become the world's doormat now. I support the notion of American culture spreading throughout the world rather than oppressive cultures overtaking Western countries.
American culture can't be too bad, because like I said, no one is fighting to get into Russia or China.
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Post by biglin on Sept 18, 2013 11:54:48 GMT -8
It's not a question of whether or not American culture IS or is NOT bad; it's the relentless determination to impose it upon other people that gets up people's noses.
Sometimes HOW you act is as important as WHAT you do.
Theodore Roosevelt famously said 'speak softly and carry a big stick.'
For the last fifty years or so US policy appears to be to shout loudly and only use the stick when they're not scared of the enemy.
It's hardly a tendency you can put down to Obama; Nixon handed over Vietnam and Cambodia to the Communists, Eisenhower handed over the people of Eastern Europe and Egypt to the Communists; Reagan was the most pro-terrorist President the US ever had; and so it goes on. One bad policy decision after another ever since Johnson left office.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 18, 2013 14:07:52 GMT -8
@ Micketeeze & Biglin, I don't know where you get the impression that I think the GOP is perfect and blameless. They are no longer in power. They seem to be powerless now headed for irrelevancy, so why do I need to say anything about them? The one who is in charge is Obama. HE is the one who has gone back on so many things, and in this day and age of YouTube, it's all on video for everyone to see and compare what he said in the past versus now.
If he's following what Bush did, why are the Democrats supporting him? I said on another board that his 'achievement' of killing OBL was because he followed Bush's directives.
Now he's back wanting to raise the debt ceiling again.
If I could find ONE THING he's done that has actually made the country stronger, I would give him credit for it.
Do either of you actually think world peace is possible, especially in the current environment with society steadily getting worse and worse? I don't. Therefore, it comes down to which countries are more free, meaning less oppressive, to its citizens.
Obama went in office thinking he could talk his 'magic' to despots and that they could be reasoned with. How has that worked out for him so far?
I do NOT support the notion that the US is the big, bad bully of the world and should just make nice and become the world's doormat now. I support the notion of American culture spreading throughout the world rather than oppressive cultures overtaking Western countries.
American culture can't be too bad, because like I said, no one is fighting to get into Russia or China.
It's hard to say. If the Healthcare act eventually benefits us all, this will be quite a legacy. In the interim? He's essentially been "Bush III", "Reagan Jr", "Clinton the Second". Which is a disappointment for me, not that I was ever naive enough to believe in major "change". My votes for the Democrats are a rejection of 'trickle down', which the Reps campaign on continuing. It will not work for US in a globalist economy, and we have no choice at that, it's the world we live in. The "John Galts" of the US 'make money'. They are not interested in making 'better trains'. They are interested in 'profits'. Give them a tax break, and they create jobs all right. In Indonesia at a buck an hour, and they don't even pay 'lip service' to workers rights. This has been going on for 20 plus years now. This won't end well, if it continues. This whole notion Obama is some sort of out of control leftist is comical. This is what I get from the tone of your posts. I don't really have any answers for American foreign policies. We seem to be 'stuck' in some 'Cold War' mentality. My hope is we get out of it. I'm actually happy Obama hasn't intervened in the ME anymore than we already were. And I can't separate our domestic economics from our foreign policies. I grasp that this economic projection has improved our citizens lifestyle for 100 years. I grasp that capitalism's innovations have benefited me personally. I get it. But the fact is? Globalization is upon us. And I'm also keenly aware how fast this can go away quickly. Last year, I was at one of the 'Ground Zero's" for superstorm Sandy. Matter of fact, I lost my car, phones, electric, heat, water, etc, for over a month. I witnessed many amazing acts of kindness. But? I saw civilization break down, and fast. I pulled a woman out of a car against her will, because I could smell it 'self igniting' from Salt Water damage. She was screaming frantically at her mother and her child to get in the car. She was going to irrationally risk incinerating the 3 of them, because she couldn't handle living without 'creature comforts' anymore. Why do i even mention this? Because 'war' is when one group of men decide to willfully inflict this on their fellow man. Warring humans can make "Katrina" sound like a pleasant fishing expedition. This has to be the last resort. For God sakes, we are not invulnerable. If you were to ask a typical German in 1940 if they were going to lose the war, the answer probably would have been 'nonsense'. "Pride is the last thing to go before the fall". This is a changing world, and a dangerous time. I hate to sound alarmist, but it's frightening. There's a lot of pissed off people out there. If they want to kill each other? Let's take care of our own first. Enough!
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 20, 2013 13:04:49 GMT -8
...thank God for DVR. No wonder I like this guy.
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Post by section8vet on Sept 20, 2013 13:31:15 GMT -8
congress controls every dollar spent on the military, military equipment, and research and development. the president gets advice from his CJCS and from his various Secretaries of the armed services. To make the claim that "Obama has weakened" both America and the military is far fetched at best.
American business leaders have weakened the US because they voluntarily shifted manufacturing to china. Now, i'm about as free market oriented as it comes but when you transfer not only production but also the means of production to a totalitarian state,well, you must pay that bill when confronted and challenged by that state in the future.
that day is fast approaching.
contrast the attitude during the ENTIRE cold war towards trade with Russia. With some rare--and I believe wholy misguided and hypocritical exceptions which Reagan made regarding grain sales-- neither the us nor its allies traded with the soviet block. No one in the business community thought that trade would defang and neuter the soviets. But today, this fellow-traveler think is the primary basis for trading with china(and also with most of the unsavory regimes with oil).
as Caesar is purported to have said when he crossed the Rubicon: alea iacta est: the die is cast. what we have done to strenghthen china in the service of lowering production costs will surely go down in history as the greatest mistake ever made.
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Post by mickeeteeze on Sept 20, 2013 14:07:54 GMT -8
congress controls every dollar spent on the military, military equipment, and research and development. the president gets advice from his CJCS and from his various Secretaries of the armed services. To make the claim that "Obama has weakened" both America and the military is far fetched at best. American business leaders have weakened the US because they voluntarily shifted manufacturing to china. Now, i'm about as free market oriented as it comes but when you transfer not only production but also the means of production to a totalitarian state,well, you must pay that bill when confronted and challenged by that state in the future. that day is fast approaching. contrast the attitude during the ENTIRE cold war towards trade with Russia. With some rare--and I believe wholy misguided and hypocritical exceptions which Reagan made regarding grain sales-- neither the us nor its allies traded with the soviet block. No one in the business community thought that trade would defang and neuter the soviets. But today, this fellow-traveler think is the primary basis for trading with china(and also with most of the unsavory regimes with oil). as Caesar is purported to have said when he crossed the Rubicon: alea iacta est: the die is cast. what we have done to strenghthen china in the service of lowering production costs will surely go down in history as the greatest mistake ever made. Powerful stuff, vet! BTW, Semper Fi. USMC 1980-1983. This here?
I couldn't agree more. The die is indeed cast. It's already happened, essentially.
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