Post by biglin on Jan 29, 2014 14:55:44 GMT -8
This post is inspired by an amazing comment I received two days ago on another forum. I was told by one member - admittedly one that I disagree with on almost everything - that as a mixed-race person I couldn't possibly be English because 'only Anglo-Saxons' could be English.
This is the response I wrote and I'm going to post it on that forum as well but thought it might be interesting to post it on a few others as well and see how other members feel about what the guy said to me.
And of course the broader issues it raises about race and nationality.
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Race and nationality:
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What is a race? Are there any genuinely 'pure' races in the Western world?
Are race and nationality inseparable so that (for instance) someone of pure Italian blood but whose family have lived in England for two hundred years could never be English but would always be Italian?
Does the colour of a person's skin make a difference so that only whites could be considered English?
Are players like Ashley Cole, Danny Welbeck and Daniel Sturridge just deluded if they think of themselves as being English?
Do people of Spanish ethnicity like Adam Lallana and Jay Rodriguez have the right to consider themselves English?
Is Michael Jordan American? Or Bob Dylan? Is Monty Panesar English? Is Nicolas Sarkozy French? Are David Cameron and Ed Milliband English? Was Disraeli English?
And what about mixed-race people? Do their descendants ever become English or will they always be regarded as foreigners because they have a touch of the tar brush about them?
Does it matter if you're born and raised here, your parents or even further back were, you speak fluent English as your native language and you've even fought in wars for the country to which you thought you belonged?
Or does all that count for nothing? And if not, why not?
When I've played music by Wiley, Dizzee Rascal and similar artists to American friends they have simply looked on them as English musicians. Black, sure, but no less English than Tamla Motown is American.
Now however divided politically the US might be only lunatic fringes like Aryan Nations would regard non-white Americans as NOT being American. Whatever their political disagreements or even racist attitudes most Americans WOULD regard people with non-white skin as still being as American as those with European ancestry.
So why should white English people look on non-white or mixed-race English people any differently?
After all, an American Jew is not an Israeli even though both may be Jewish. An Argentinian is not a Mexican even though both may be Hispanic. An African-American is not an African even though both may be black.
The law is fairly clear in most countries. An American non-white is as American as his or her white counterpart in the eyes of the legal system.
The semi-federal structure of the UK maybe creates special problems with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland being at least for now united with England in a United Kingdom. Some Scots consider themselves Scottish but not British; others consider themselves both. The same's true in Northern Ireland, Wales and to some extent in England.
The whole concept of Britishness is under attack from several different sources - the nationalist groups who want to break away from what they see as English domination or (in the case of English nationalists) having to support the non-English parts of the UK; the left-wingers who think that the UK represents the last vestiges of the British Empire and want to break it up completely as an act of anti-imperialism; the neo-Nazis who hate foreigners so much that they even look on Welsh and Scots and Irish as objects to be hated; the PC mob who want everyone to have a sort of polyglot porridge type of 'culture' where no one is anyone and everyone has no individuality at all; the exhibitionists who just want to be different for the sake of it and don't care about the effect they have on the people they hurt through their stupidity.
But it's strange that some neo-Nazis and English nationalists can claim that a non-white person can be 'British' - even though they reject the whole concept of Britishness or Britain - and yet not English - even though they want an independent England. Is it that they want to ethnically cleanse England of all non-whites?
The law is clear; a non-white person IS as English as an 'Anglo-Saxon' one.
For once the law goes together with common sense and decent human values. The idea that English nationality can only be based on skin colour or ethnic origin is wrong in law, wrong in fact and wrong in morality.
This is the response I wrote and I'm going to post it on that forum as well but thought it might be interesting to post it on a few others as well and see how other members feel about what the guy said to me.
And of course the broader issues it raises about race and nationality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Race and nationality:
------------------------------
What is a race? Are there any genuinely 'pure' races in the Western world?
Are race and nationality inseparable so that (for instance) someone of pure Italian blood but whose family have lived in England for two hundred years could never be English but would always be Italian?
Does the colour of a person's skin make a difference so that only whites could be considered English?
Are players like Ashley Cole, Danny Welbeck and Daniel Sturridge just deluded if they think of themselves as being English?
Do people of Spanish ethnicity like Adam Lallana and Jay Rodriguez have the right to consider themselves English?
Is Michael Jordan American? Or Bob Dylan? Is Monty Panesar English? Is Nicolas Sarkozy French? Are David Cameron and Ed Milliband English? Was Disraeli English?
And what about mixed-race people? Do their descendants ever become English or will they always be regarded as foreigners because they have a touch of the tar brush about them?
Does it matter if you're born and raised here, your parents or even further back were, you speak fluent English as your native language and you've even fought in wars for the country to which you thought you belonged?
Or does all that count for nothing? And if not, why not?
When I've played music by Wiley, Dizzee Rascal and similar artists to American friends they have simply looked on them as English musicians. Black, sure, but no less English than Tamla Motown is American.
Now however divided politically the US might be only lunatic fringes like Aryan Nations would regard non-white Americans as NOT being American. Whatever their political disagreements or even racist attitudes most Americans WOULD regard people with non-white skin as still being as American as those with European ancestry.
So why should white English people look on non-white or mixed-race English people any differently?
After all, an American Jew is not an Israeli even though both may be Jewish. An Argentinian is not a Mexican even though both may be Hispanic. An African-American is not an African even though both may be black.
The law is fairly clear in most countries. An American non-white is as American as his or her white counterpart in the eyes of the legal system.
The semi-federal structure of the UK maybe creates special problems with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland being at least for now united with England in a United Kingdom. Some Scots consider themselves Scottish but not British; others consider themselves both. The same's true in Northern Ireland, Wales and to some extent in England.
The whole concept of Britishness is under attack from several different sources - the nationalist groups who want to break away from what they see as English domination or (in the case of English nationalists) having to support the non-English parts of the UK; the left-wingers who think that the UK represents the last vestiges of the British Empire and want to break it up completely as an act of anti-imperialism; the neo-Nazis who hate foreigners so much that they even look on Welsh and Scots and Irish as objects to be hated; the PC mob who want everyone to have a sort of polyglot porridge type of 'culture' where no one is anyone and everyone has no individuality at all; the exhibitionists who just want to be different for the sake of it and don't care about the effect they have on the people they hurt through their stupidity.
But it's strange that some neo-Nazis and English nationalists can claim that a non-white person can be 'British' - even though they reject the whole concept of Britishness or Britain - and yet not English - even though they want an independent England. Is it that they want to ethnically cleanse England of all non-whites?
The law is clear; a non-white person IS as English as an 'Anglo-Saxon' one.
For once the law goes together with common sense and decent human values. The idea that English nationality can only be based on skin colour or ethnic origin is wrong in law, wrong in fact and wrong in morality.